Episode 208: Beyond Yes-Men: How Agreeable Sales Teams Could Be Costing You Profits

What if the qualities we look for in our salespeople - being agreeable, friendly, and eager to please - are actually hindering our sales and costing us profits? In this thought-provoking podcast, sales expert Jeremy Miner challenges the conventional wisdom that a happy and accommodating sales team is always the most effective.

With decades of experience in the sales industry, Jeremy brings a fresh perspective to the table, showing how a different approach can "pull your clients in" and avoid the common pitfalls of traditional sales techniques that often trigger resistance in potential customers.

From door-to-door sales teams to high-level boardroom negotiations, the insights shared in this podcast have the power to transform the way you think about sales and revolutionize the way you do business. So join us as we explore the fascinating world of sales psychology and discover how to unleash the full potential of your sales team.

Get  access to a free mini-course called the NEPQ 101 Mini-course
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I had the opportunity to spend quite a bit of time with some very, very, very successful people, and we were talking about legacy and what we want our legacy to be. What do we want to leave behind after our days are over? And a really interesting. Comment was brought up, and this is something that I think I need to share with everyone because it's something that not very many people think about.

We all think about all of the success, and we all think about what we're going to leave behind and how great it's going to be for whoever it is, whether that be an organization, our families, or whatever it might be. We're proud to leave all of them. Things are behind to the next generation. This one particular topic, though, really stood out and made me realize that, yeah, you know, I have some work to do in this area as well.

As many of you know, my father passed away when I was 16. He drowned in Cape Hatteras. And I'm not gonna get into all the details as to what happened afterward, but essentially this idea, this concept that was brought up was something that I lived through as well, and the idea is so simple. All you have to do is just put instructions in place for whoever it is that you might.

Giving your assets to afterward. Tell them bank accounts, tell them, you know, plans who, who has what information, how, if you have a business, how does the business run? Who is responsible for what? Just planning out and giving that information to you. Heirs can be incredibly, incredibly powerful and they will thank you over and over and over and over again for having the foresight to be able to put all of that information in place and have it in one area so that people know and understand it.

 On Invest in Square Feet, we unlock the secrets of wealthy entrepreneurship. I'm Matt Shields and my mission is to help business owners just like you, protect your wealth so that you can invest passively in multi-family real estate. Okay, so today we're going to have a really interesting conversation with a sales professional named Jeremy.

If you've heard of him before, you probably know that he has some, we'll call it unorthodox ways of selling, and we'll get into this, but most sales trainers, most salespeople approach sales with a very. I guess the happy type of mindset. You want to be the person that is very upbeat and positive when you approach whoever it is that you're trying to sell to.

And Jeremy teaches a completely different idea, and I can tell you from experience that this does work. This does get you more. Engaged with your sales prospect, so I'm not gonna spoil it. I'm not gonna go any deeper than that. Jeremy's gonna dive into the entire process, and how you can increase your sales, and it is completely unintuitive to what most people believe.

 I remember the sales manager was like, Hey, Jeremy, just remember when they opened the door. You gotta be really excited, be really enthusiastic, and start talking to 'em about all the great things this is gonna do for them. But I noticed from the very first door, That I was getting all these objections every time I, the more excited I was, the more turned people, people were, more turned off, the more excited I was.

We can't afford it. We don't need it. We already have a company for that. Uh, we already talked to you guys last month. I need to talk to my spouse. Let me think it over. Can you call me back a week, a month, or a year later? And I remember probably about seven to eight weeks in of that if I remember. There was this one time I was, I was standing on the curb.

I was actually sitting down. I still remember cuz my legs, like when you, have you ever done door-to-door sales? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when you go around door to door for 10 straight hours, your legs start to get pretty damn tight. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, it's, it's a, it's a workout in itself and you're talking like the middle of July, full humidity, sweat, drench down your back, you're at nine o'clock at night.

And I remember one particular, it was a Friday night. I was sitting there waiting for the sales manager to pick me up. I'd worked 12 hours that day and made zero sales. So when you make zero sales in a straight commissioned sales job, that means you make $0. You can be better off working at McDonald's. That whole week I'd made zero sales, so I'd worked 60 plus hours, made $0, and I remember setting there, just barely married.

Child on the way, how can I go home to her and say, we don't have enough money to pay our rent in a couple of weeks, we're gonna have to move in with your parents. Mm-hmm.  live in the basement. It's gonna be one of those guys. Okay. Yeah. My pride, I did, I had too much pride to do that. Okay. And I remember thinking like, you know, maybe.

Maybe selling just wasn't for me. Maybe I just wasn't a salesperson. I was not born. I need to get a real job. Okay. And I remember, uh, when the sales manager picked me up that night, he popped in a Tony Robbins cd, cuz 20 plus years ago, people, believe it or not, listen to things that are called CDs. Mm-hmm, he popped in the CD and I might be butchering it, but he said, he said something to the fact that, that most people.

For the simple reason, they don't learn the right skills that are necessary to succeed. They don't learn the right skills. Now, I went on to say that everybody's taught skills, but the people who fail are the ones who were not taught the right ones. And when I heard that it was like this. It was like the kind of the.

Maybe the heavens open up to me like there's this light, light bulb moment, like, you know, like the God was speaking to me and sent down his messengers. That may be what the company was training me and what I was learning from some of the old sales gurus. Maybe they just weren't the right skills. Maybe they were outdated.

Maybe they just didn't work. Very well with today's prospects. I never thought that that could even be a possibility. I was so new in sales, I just didn't know what I didn't know. Mm-hmm... And at the same time, my degree that I was going to school for magically thought heaven's behavioral science, and I was getting a minor in human psychology.

Okay, which is kind of important to understand in sales. I don't think most salespeople understand the psychological impact, of the way the brain thinks. And so I was learning from my professors that the most persuasive way to communicate was here the theory, but from the gurus, they were teaching.

It was over here. It was like completely opposite. So I'm like, how do I take the theory of behavioral science and how the brain makes decisions to do something or not? How do I take that and put that into a sales process? Mm-hmm... So that was my whole thing at that point. How do I do that? So I started learning how to use techniques that work with humans.

So instead of pushing my prospects that trigger sales resistance that most salespeople are taught, I started learning from just the way human beings interact and the way they think. Psychology to get my prospects to pull me in where I didn't have to push when I started learning that skill. Selling became very, very easy and extremely profitable from that point.

Are you with me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 

yeah. So, so walk through an example of that, like, right? So I would imagine that when you first started out selling whatever it was you're selling, you know, as you know, knock, knock, knock on the door. , you know, Hey, you know, ma'am, we're, we're here, we're selling, you know, this product, and it's, you know, gonna be great.

You, you're gonna get this and this and this, and Oh no, I don't want it. I don't want it. As you said, you went through all the different objections. What, what did that turn into after you started realizing this? How did that, how did that pitch change, would you say? 

Yeah, and it's obviously different door-to-door than if you're selling B2B or more inbound leads.

Outbound leads, which I can give different examples for that as well. But you know, what I started noticing is that the more I looked and acted and talked like a salesperson, The more resistance I was getting from the prospect. Mm-hmm... So I started thinking, even in those days, 20, it was about 22 at that point, how do I reduce that resistance?

So I'm not competing with that in the first minute. Because if you're competing with sales resistance the very first minute, it's so hard to overcome that. You're just competing with objections the whole time. It, just makes selling so stressful when it doesn't have to be. So how do I reduce resistance?

So as a door-to-door salesperson, which is gonna be different than if. Selling to a boardroom meeting. It's a little bit different there, but what I started doing is I'm like, Instead of wearing all these nice clothes that my sales manager taught me I should wear and like nice watches and jewelry. Cuz that just smells like what, right?

Sales. Salesperson. Salesy. Yeah, exactly. Salesy. How do I, how do I get them to view me not as a salesperson, even in my wardrobe? So I'm like, okay, what I'm gonna do is I bought like a $10 Walmart watch. Cause I didn't have any money anyways. It wasn't like I was doing a fancy watch, but I bought like a $10 Walmart watch.

I remember I put a tape. On my side of my, of my, my pants, I wore just cargo khakis. I wore a white New Balance grandpa shirt. Do you know what I'm talking about? The white new balance, like when you become grandpa age, you start wearing the white new balance cuz you want the cover. I started wearing those as a 22-year-old

Okay. Just a regular polo shirt. Very basic. Had the company logo on there, and then I'm like, okay, what other things can I do? I got a metal clip.  like this with like a survey thing on it, so mm-hmm. , I think I'm more like a meter reader. And then I went and got a lime green and an orange construction vest.

I'm not kidding when I say this. And just that alone, when they came to the door, lowered resistance cuz they didn't view me as a salesperson trying to sell them something. So instead of being up in their grill like I was, I was more back and I was sitting here like, Looking around the home, you know, kind of looking around like, I'm doing a survey, and they come, they're like, oh yeah, how can I help you?

And I'm like, yeah. Are you guys the, um, are you guys the, the homeowners here very like, confused, like Yeah, yeah. We're the homeowners. What's going on? Immediately? Instead of like triggering sales resistance that most salespeople do in the first 10 seconds, I'm triggering curiosity. Okay. Just that alone, man.

I could go into a lot more, but just that alone, right there almost, I call it the confused old man, because when you hear a confused old man, what do you wanna do? You wanna help you help. Exactly. Exactly. Help, right? You wanna help the confused old man? That's a great analogy. Just by that lowered sales resistance by 80, 90%.

And then if you have the right questions to ask at the right time, you trigger to be more cur. One thing we all have to understand, this is just behavioral science 1 0 1, within the first seven to 12 seconds of any sales interaction you are involved in. Mm-hmm. , whether that's. Door to door, whether that's on a cold call to a company, whether that's presenting to a board of directors, whether that's in a home selling B2C or an inbound lead.

You're setting here like we are on Zoom. Your prospects subconsciously, we cannot even help it the way our brain works. Are already picking up social cues from you. They're picking up on your verbal and nonverbal and body language cues from your tonality and what you were saying and or asking that triggers their brain to react.

This is scary. If we don't understand this, react in one of two ways. Okay? So if we come across as aggressive, overly assumptive, and needy, you know what I mean by needy, right? You can tell when the salesperson needs the deal, right? Hey, do you have two minutes of your time or I can? Nobody believes you're only gonna take two minutes of time.

You're needy and you come across attached. And you don't know the right questions to ask. It triggers the brain to go into what we call fight or flight mode. You've heard of fight or flight mode, right? Sure, absolutely. Everybody has. But does anybody know what triggers fight or flight mode? Most people don't.

And as a salesperson, you probably want to understand what triggers fight or flight mode. So you eliminate that so you don't trigger fight or flight mode cuz then you're just competing against the Great Wall of China, I call it. Mm-hmm... It's like the great wall of objections you have to then break down.

I'd rather not have a wall at... I'd rather just have complete openness so I can do that. So that's where the prospect, when you trigger fight or flight mode, as everybody knows they do what They get defensive. Mm-hmm. , that's flight mode or flight mode is they try to get rid of you and they say things like that, oh, I forgot about the appointment.

Hey, I'm too busy. Can you call me back later? Oh yeah. Call me back Saturday night at 10:00 PM Okay, I'll call you back Saturday. And then they never answer. Right? Yeah. Or, you know, after we, we just don't need it. Uh, we're good. We already used somebody for that. How much is this gonna cost me within the first 30 seconds?

You're just, you're triggering that. Okay. Now, once you learn how to work with human behavior, okay, we call that neuro-emotional persuasion question. It stands for n e p  q, and you learn how to come across more. In your conversations now when I need, when I say neutral, that means you're unbiased. You're not quite sure if you can even help yet.

How? How could you even know if you could help it? Like if somebody comes to you and says, Hey Jeremy, I appreciate you. Let's say you're going in front of a boardroom meeting and they're like, Hey Jeremy, this sounds really good. Somebody you haven't even met yet. A decision maker. You've met with three or four other decision-makers.

Now you're coming in, there's eight. Four of them don't even know who you are. And they're like, Hey, we are to use a vendor for this. Why should we go with you? What would most salespeople say when they heard that? What do you think they would say? Yeah, they would, they, they start going, oh, we're the 

best at this, or You should go with us because we've been ranked the number one in customer service and we've, JD Associates ranked us, and our clients are this and this and this.

That's why you should go with us and our competitors. It's in one ear out the other. Because why? Because every salesperson says that. So they just associate you with everyone else trying to stuff their solution down their throat that's ever tried to sell them something. So what I wanna do is I want to disarm that person.

I want them to let their guard down.  because if I can get them to let their guard down, then they become open to what I'm offering. Mm-hmm. , if I can't, very hard to make a sale. Okay. Or it just prolongs the sales cycle by 10 times. Okay. So if they say something like that, I'm just gonna lean back and say, well, I'm not quite sure that you should yet.

Yeah. You know, we'd have to understand a little bit. About what you're using right now in X, Y, Z areas, just to see if we could even help, because there are some firms where there's just not much we can do for them, and they're sometimes better off staying with who they already have. So for example, we need to understand and then boom, I want you to watch when you do that, the body language and the demeanor of the prospect when you say, well, why should we go with you?

Well, I'm not quite sure that you should yet. , if you pause two or three seconds, they're gonna be like, mm-hmm. Yeah. You can just tell them, it's just it, you take over the status in that room. Mm-hmm. , because experts and authorities don't need the sale. They already have all these clients that are getting results.

They don't need you. In fact,, when you do that, it's almost like they view you much differently. They're like, Okay. Maybe I should listen to this person. He doesn't seem needy. Mm-hmm. , because when you feel that somebody's needy, let's say you're, you say you're single and you're chasing after somebody, you're really interested and you just keep chasing them in the beginning, what do they typically do?

Yeah. They're gonna run away. They run. 

Yeah. But if you act like you don't need them, what do they typically do? Yeah. Then, then they're all over. Yet they, yeah. They want that. Pull you in more. It's the same thing in sales. I, I don't know why nobody's putting that together yet... It's just. Human Psychology 1 0 1.

That is so interesting. So, You know, obviously, again, this, this can go in all kinds of different directions depending on exactly what you're trying to sell and the, the, uh, the, the platform or the median that you're trying to use it in. But do you have, a framework or a structure that you would say, you know, works pretty well in pretty well?

You know, any situation too. Again, ki that that opening comment, that opening remark, is it, is it essentially, you know, I'm, I'm not sure you 

should or, so biggest, the biggest problem with most companies and their salespeople is that their salespeople do not have a structured sales process that everyone in the company is following.

everybody's doing their own thing. They're just winging it. And then the, the owners, the, the sales management are wondering why, oh, y you know, they're losing 30% of their staff every six months having to replace 'em. They just, there's no se there's no sales structure that actually works. Mm-hmm.  the reason why, our company has grown so fast, like Inc.

Uh, I mean, it doesn't really matter, but Ink Magazine ranked us the fastest, or Inc. 5,000 list, ranked as the number one fastest growing sales training company, not overall. , but number one, fastest growing sales training company in the United States last year in just our third year. The reason that is, is because our sales structure, our methodology that we train companies, n e PQ works for any industry.

Mm-hmm... When people say, well, I don't know. I know you train this company in that company, in this industry, but I don't know if it'll work for me. I sell X, Y, Z, and Z digits, and it has to be sold a certain way. I just don't know. All we simply say is, do you sell to human needs? Mm-hmm. ? Yes. Now, do the human beings you talk to, do your prospects talk to, or do they have problems?

Yes. Or do they have at least emotional needs? Yes. Does your solution solve those problems and emotional needs? Yes. Then what we train you would actually work for what you sell, okay? Mm-hmm... So we use a methodology called N E P Q which stands from neuro emotional persuasion. Persuasion questioning. So from the start of that conversation, okay?

From what we call connecting questions, which take the focus off you. Put it on them. Mm-hmm.  from situation questions that help you and the prospect find out what their real situation is from problem awareness questions. This is all structured, okay? It's not out of order. It's in a structure because it persuades them the most.

It pulls them into the most problem awareness questions that help the prospect find out what their real problems are. One thing we all have to do, and we all know this, is that most of your prospects when you initially start talking to them, don't even know that they have a problem. , or maybe they know they have a problem, but they don't really know what the problem is.

They know that something's wrong, but they don't know what the real problem is, or most of them don't really understand the consequences of what happens if they don't do anything about solving the problems. So when you learn what we train you, not only are you able to help them find that one problem.

but you're also helping them to able to find two or three or maybe four other problems they didn't even realize they had. And when you're able to do that, not by telling them that you tell them what their problems are, it does what one ear out the other. You're biased, you're the salesperson. Your questioning allows 'em to see.

How bad their problems really are, and it builds a massive gap in their mind from where they are. We call that their current state or current situation compared to where they want to be. We call that their objective state. Now, what's the gap in between all of these newfound problems that your questioning skills allow them to see they have, that they didn't know they had before?

When you're able to do that, they start to view you. They don't view you like all these other salespeople trying to push something down their throat. Yeah. They view you as the expert, the trusted authority in the market that they're going to buy all of the time. So problem awareness questions help you and them find out what their real problems are, and the root cause of the problem.

See, most salespeople can help them find a problem, but they're not able to help the prospect realize what the root cause of that problem is, and then most importantly, how those problems are affecting them. , personally, I'm talking even CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, how those problems are affecting them personally, the business personally.

Okay. Then we wanna move into a stage called solution awareness questions that allow them to see what their future's gonna look like once all these newfound problems are solved. So they're like, oh my gosh, this is what my future's gonna look like for me, for my business, for themselves personally, depending on what you sell, B2C or b2b.

And then we wanna ask what's. Consequence questions that allow them to see what the consequences are, the ramifications are if they don't do anything about solving the newfound problems, okay? Mm-hmm. , then we're, if we're in B2B sales, we're then either going to transition into the next step. That could be a demo.

The next step could be a proposal. The next step could meet the board. The next step could meet the next decision-maker. Just depends on what your next step is in your sales cycle. B2b, if you're in b2c, If it's a one-call close, say you sell life insurance or something, just as an example, be the next step presentation.

Okay? Or maybe it's a two-step next-step demo. Then the close just depends on your industry, and your process. We teach all of that. And then how do you present? How do you present back where it emotionally connects the dots? So instead of boring your prospects to death with like a 50 mm-hmm.  slide deck.

About, here's our corporate office. It looks so fancy. Here are our awards. Nobody cares about that. I hate to tell you this. Nobody can give an S h I T about what your corporate office looks like or how many awards you won. They can Google that themselves and look at your company website. They do not care.

You are just boring them. We wanna connect the emotional dots of their problem. , the root cause and where they want to go, and how our solution will actually solve those problems and give them where they want to go. That's what they care about. Mm-hmm... And that gets 'em to think results-based thinking.

Over price-based thinking, because if you get 'em to think price-based thinking, you're dead. They're just gonna negotiate you down. You get 'em to think results-based thinking. They will gladly pay way more to your company to solve their problems and get them what they want. If they can feel like you can get them the best result, they will gladly pay way more.

I can assure you that. Mm-hmm... Mm-hmm... And then we wanna ask what are called commitment questions that get them to commit to take the next step and purchase what you're offering to solve their problems. So that would be the sales structure.  in an overview, bunch of boring nerd stuff. I know. No, no. 

I, I, I love that and I, I, I'm, I'm curious.

Um, I, I think that a lot of people will go in, as you said, they've got their 50-page or 50-slide deck thing Correct? And go into this pitch and here's who we are, and we did this, and we have this and, and all of this fi Yeah. And finally, in the end, they get to whatever it is that they're, you know, they're, they're trying to sell with your approach.

Would you, would you say you're selling in a boardroom? Would you walk in and, and, you know, start going into that? We're 

gonna have a presentation up on the board, but we're also gonna take him... It's not like we're just going into the boardroom and that's the first meeting we've had. Yeah, it's typically a first-call discovery.

If you're selling b2b, for most industries, the first call's gonna be a discovery call with some type of C-level executive. That might be part of the decision-making process, probably not right. And then you're navigating. You have to learn the right questions to navigate through the organization and bring in the other decision-makers.

Forbes had an article the other day, about the average company in the United States of America, we're not even talking Fortune 500 or Fortune 100, just the average size company has 6.7 decision makers and or influencers. Now, even if it's not a decision-maker, what happens if you're selling some type of software?

Let's say that you're selling cyber. And you're selling to a bank, say Wells Fargo for example. I'm just throwing out some. In some companies, not only do you want to get involved, the decision makers, let's say the CFO, F, or the CEO make the ultimate decision, I dunno, or the department, but let's say the CTO O is gonna be the one that's gonna have to train.

their staff on how this new software works. They don't make the decision, but they're the ones responsible for training the staff. Do you think you probably want to get that C T O and the department head over there involved because do you think they can influence the ultimate decision maker on what they decide to do?

Hell yeah. Because, the ultimate decision maker might not be down in the trenches and even know what their problems are. They might have zero ideas, they're over the company. They don't know what's going on in the cybersecurity part. So not only do you have to get the decision makers involved, you have to get the influencers because that c t O might feel his job is gonna be threatened by this new software.

They could feel like it's gonna take too much to install it, it's gonna take too much to operate it, and then they. Shoving it off to the decision makers and dissuading the decision maker, and then the sales loss. So you have to know how to navigate and bring those other people in. But if you're in a boardroom, typically there's gonna be even other decision makers in there who don't know anything about you.

You go in there and just go through a presentation, you're, it's like you're wing it. You're hoping and praying that something you said in the presentation is gonna stick and they're gonna magically buy. Uh, we call that. , you know, it's a drug. I love it. So many salespeople take where they hope and pray something they're gonna to say is gonna stick.

And that's a hard and unpredictable way to close sales. It just, you have no control. So we wanna go in with that sales process. It might be an abbreviated questioning process, but we're gonna start off that instead of like, Hey, going right into our pitch. We might come in and be like, now John, I know, I know we've, we've met and we've talked about X and Y and Z.

Let's, let's do this. We prepared something to go through on how we could. You know, the challenges, that Jim and Laura brought up the other day, but just so I don't go over things that they might have already discussed with you, what would everybody like to cover today? Just to see if we can actually help.

Mm-hmm... And then I want to get like, well, we wanna cover this and we wanna cover that. And I'm like, okay, now I know where to go. And then I'm gonna ask more questions about that. I might start going through the presentation, but I'm also gonna stop and ask situation and problem awareness questions while I'm going through the presentation.

So instead of a 50-slide deck, I might have that down to 10 or 12. My questioning skills are really pulling out more emotion. Cause that's where decisions are made decisions. And then I can close that. Dig you with me. 

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. That makes perfect sense. Um, if you, if you could draw a picture of.

Some of the results that you've gotten, right? Like what, what a salesperson's results might have looked like before they were going through your training. Look like after, 

I mean, I could, we have over 7,000 testimonials, in the last 28 months. So, we train every industry. So Forbes says there are 158 industries and then subsets of those, we're in all of those at this point.

So, uh, we have, we trained over 351,000 salespeople in the county. In, the last three years, over 7,000 testimonies. The hard part about getting testimonials from salespeople is they never wanna. Yeah, how they're outselling everybody three to one. It's like pulling teeth. Like we don't, we don't even ask people anymore.

People just come into our Facebook groups or ads and they'll post like, Hey, I started going through N PQ a year ago and my income went from 5,000 a month in commissions. Now I'm making 25,000 a month in commissions. Selling the exact same thing. Or, you know what? We have this home improvement company and we were doing 5 million in sales two years ago, and last year we did 47 million in sales, like massive results.

You know, that's why we're ranked so high on, the INC 5000 list because you can't have that type of growth as a company without getting crazy results for your clients. Mm-hmm... And that's kind of why it's spread from, you know, fortune 100 companies. We even have a few of those clients now, all the way down to celebrities like Ryan Sirhans, one of our clients, the Million Dollar Listing New York guy, we train all of his salespeople that sell real estate, and lead generation coaching programs.

 Man, you know, wasn't that a great conversation? I know that I learned so much, and I hope that you did as well. So in today's episode, we learned just how important it is to approach the sales process from your customer's point of view. What is it that they're concerned with? What is it that they are interested in learning and fixing on their own?

We learned how that typical, happy, upbeat characteristic that most salespeople have can actually be creating sales rejection before the conversation even starts. Success in sales is all about building relationships, and when you approach the sales call from a way where you are truly trying to understand what it is that the customer is struggling with, and what are their concerns, you're going to build a much, much deeper, more lasting relationship.

If you're interested in learning more from Jeremy, I suggest that you check out some of his Facebook groups. Jeremy gives away a tremendous, tremendous amount of value for free in those groups. But he also has a free course@salesrevolution.pro where you can sign up and again, you get a free course called N E PQ 1 0 1 mini course, and he says that there are a few questions included in that mini-course, and just including those few questions alone to your sales process is going to increase your sales.

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